Curse

orehovka · Jun 02, 2010, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Okay, I know that it is scandalous even to mention this here and that it is retarded to play such build in RA. However before calling me "noob" please read my entire post and if you still think that this idea suck, I'll be glad to listen to you.

So the thing is that I became tired of hexing and bloodstealing and yesterday decided to enter as MM just to see how long will I survive.

This was my N/Me build:

1. Arcane Echo. Enchantment Spell. (20 seconds.) Arcane Echo becomes the next spell you use (20 seconds). This enchantment ends if you use any skill that is not a spell.

2. Aura of the Lich. Elite Enchantment Spell. Exploit all corpses in earshot. Animates a level 1...14...17 bone horror, plus one for each exploited corpse. You have +1 Death Magic (5...37...45 seconds).

3. Animate Shambling Horror. Spell. Exploit nearest corpse to create a level 1...14...17 shambling horror. When the shambling horror dies, it is replaced by a level 0...12...15 jagged horror that causes Bleeding with each of its attacks.

4. Death Nova. Enchantment Spell. (30 seconds.) Deals 26...85...100 damage and inflicts Poisoned condition (15 seconds) on adjacent foes if target ally dies.

5. Infuse Condition . Enchantment Spell. (15...51...60 seconds.) Whenever you receive a condition, it transfers from you to your closest undead servant.

6. Dark Bond. Enchantment Spell. (30...54...60 seconds.) Transfers 75% of incoming damage from you to your nearest servant.

7. Physical Resistance. Stance. For 30...78...90 seconds, You gain +40 armor against physical damage, but you lose 24...14...12 armor against elemental damage.

8. Ressurection signet.

So I entered the battle expecting to be primary target and to die often, annoying both teammates and foes. However I won something like 20 consecutive matches and the one we lost I was the last person standing.

Today I entered again with this build and after loosing the second match a teammate ranger said the usual "Go to PvE, noob". We had a leecher in the team, the ranger was killed first, then the monk, and then me. The leecher of course was the last to die this time, staying on the spawning point.

So my question is: if I succeed in maintaining good survivability (with my enchants, shiled+runes and kiting) and I'm useful by creating minions all the time (I start with 2 and usually keep 4 on the field, depending on recharge), is there something that still makes this build bad for RA?

Masmar · Jun 02, 2010, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Yeah you hardly do anything productive for the team. You'd have 4 minions hitting for 5 damage.
Yeah, loads of pressure alright

RhanoctJocosa · Jun 02, 2010, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Excellent build will play this all the time as soon as I get a run to droks for my necro!

Strife17 · Jun 02, 2010, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Your build is bad for RA. believe it or not.

you have 4 minions.. thats the only thing you do. death nova is just really pathetic acutally against 4 vs 4. In pve it works because groups have little condition removal and they are balled with like 5-7 enemies.

And because you were the last one standing. is most likely because ppl didn't think of you as a threat. therefore they don't bother to attack you.

Also any ridiculous build can make 20 wins. just try long enough and get some luck with your opponents.

your build belongs in pve. but if you're having fun with it in RA. stick to RA and turn off team chat. No one has the right to tell you what to run.

sorry for my bad english, i'm not a native speaker.

AlexanderMorpheus · Jun 02, 2010, 02:09 PM // 14:09

As masmar said you hardly contribute anything to your team, minions will do next to no damage, and death nova isn't exactly reliable damage output (you can't aim your minions at a target being spiked, if they die and noone is next to them the damage is wasted etc.).

As for this builds weaknesses: All of your skills are hella easy to interupt, a Mesmer or Ranger will enjoy camping your ass - and there are a lot of players playing a rupter in RA. I really can't see the point of the second minion spell if your using 2x AotL - except AotL getting rupted. Also in Ra there won't be as many corpses as JQ/FA/AB so your effectiveness will be limited by this. The reason you were the last person standing is because the other team didn't see you as a threat, e.g. they saw the build you were using, and decided it wasn't worth targeting you and decided to go for monk/mes/ele or some other target.

My suggestion: You will have a lot more success in AB/JQ/FA with this build than you will do in RA because of the amount of corpses and different objectives ( your minions will more than likley all camp the NPC's on shrines and when they die you will get a good amount of damage off Nova). You could also drop the rez sig, and add Illusion of Haste, you will get the speed boost without the downside of the cripple condition when it ends as it will be passed on to one of your minions.

If you keep running it in RA people will give you abuse / rage on you, so even if you think the build is viable it probably ain't worth the hastle you'll get for it.

Jeydra · Jun 02, 2010, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

7. Physical Resistance. Stance. For 30...78...90 seconds, You gain +40 armor against physical damage, but you lose 24...14...12 armor against elemental damage.

Physical Resistance is perhaps the worst PvP skill in the game ... like, against any competent physical, they will switch to elemental mod and laugh at your self-inflicted -armour.

Ul70r · Jun 02, 2010, 02:14 PM // 14:14

MMs fail in PvP (yes, even in AB), no exceptions.

Lord Natural · Jun 02, 2010, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ul70r

MMs fail in PvP (yes, even in AB), no exceptions.

They fail worse in RA.

You could make a 1 skill bar that would be more helpful to your team.

Eragon Zarroc · Jun 02, 2010, 02:23 PM // 14:23

you don't deal enough dmg/pressure. u just cause some bleeding and are lucky if ur minions explode next to people. ur 20 consecutive u must have been lucky to get other strong players on ur team.

Rocky Rockstar · Jun 02, 2010, 06:10 PM // 18:10

The good thing about ra is that it doesnt matter what your team mates think. You can test builds freely.
You can get 25 wins easily if you have 3 people that are pro even if your build sucks, so 1 good run dosent mean the build is good. Try it over more then 2 runs and see for yourself.

EDIT: but yeah the build sucks. its like a healer warrior with dolyak signet, he cant reach you and even if he did he couldnt kill you, he is just wasting time with his + armor. but if you find it fun i would suggest taking out physical resistence, death nova and shambling horror and throw in foul feast, deathly chill and another

Xsiriss · Jun 02, 2010, 06:33 PM // 18:33

This is a troll right? Riiiiiiiight?

MM's belong in PvE (maybe FA and a bit of AB), where they're only effective because of hpw AI works.

ac1inferno · Jun 02, 2010, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Yes, MMs are generally bad in RA, but also, anything can work in RA. One MM build that I saw was pretty effective was curse hybrid. I don't know the attributes, but from the skills I saw, I can only guess that the build was something like this:

[build prof=N/Me][Barbs][Defile Defenses][Faintheartedness][Plague Sending][Arcane Echo][Aura of the Lich][Foul Feast][Res Sig][/build]

FoxBat · Jun 02, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00

I always wondered where the hell barbs was when the AotLs were so popular.

kupp · Jun 02, 2010, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by orehovka

So I entered the battle expecting to be primary target and to die often, annoying both teammates and foes. However I won something like 20 consecutive matches and the one we lost I was the last person standing.

Today I entered again with this build and after loosing the second match a teammate ranger said the usual "Go to PvE, noob". We had a leecher in the team, the ranger was killed first, then the monk, and then me. The leecher of course was the last to die this time, staying on the spawning point.

So my question is: if I succeed in maintaining good survivability (with my enchants, shiled+runes and kiting) and I'm useful by creating minions all the time (I start with 2 and usually keep 4 on the field, depending on recharge), is there something that still makes this build bad for RA?

MM builds are horrible in PvP because they don't output any kind of decent damage without Barbs or MoP wich can be easily removed. Other than that, you're not doing anything useful at all.

The reason why people don't attack you is because you're not actually a threat. They work good in PvE because the AI will blindly attack anything be it players or minions and they're usually balled up so you get a meat shield that can blow heavy damage on a group, but in PvP neither of those apply. So they just choose not to attack you and essencially the game turns into a 4vs3 game, where you're usually the last one to die since everyone else is a bigger threat than you.

orehovka · Jun 02, 2010, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masmar

Yeah you hardly do anything productive for the team. You'd have 4 minions hitting for 5 damage.
Yeah, loads of pressure alright

If the damage output is really that low then I agree that minions are useless. (Though on this page http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bone_Horror the table shows a little bit more positive statistics).

I'm not that fond of this build and I agree that against high armor players minions would be almost useless and most casters usually have some armor buff or life restoring skill...

Lord Dagon · Jun 02, 2010, 08:16 PM // 20:16

i , like many here, wouldnt suggest a MM build for RA.
Now, this isnt to say its not for pvp in general. I've seen/ran great MM builds in things such as JQ where you have a large amount of corpse b/c of shrine changing and player death. for RA tho you wont have that many minions and they all wont be doing that much.
just my 2 cents.

shinta_himura · Jun 02, 2010, 08:22 PM // 20:22

MMs in RA are no where near meta-rific but you're wrong to say they're useless and provide no benefit to a team.

At chokepoints, Jade Arena being a perfect example, minions prove to be good body-blocks against melee. And there is no 4-minion limit. You can chain AE and AOTL to get two right at the start, as soon as one person dies you have 4, more people will die and you get more, not to mention all the rezing that goes on.

We have 10 professions because this game isn't all about dealing damage.

kedde · Jun 03, 2010, 12:39 PM // 12:39

You're wrong, the game is all about dealing damage. Only there are things that can hinder you from dealing damage and things that make dealing damage easier.

However annoying minions are for bodyblocking they will never warrant 25% of your team.

Xx Citrus Spike Xx · Jun 03, 2010, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Minions can be annoying also in ra , for all the pvp`ers that c space their targets will have trouble i ran a build before that was mostly degen build but brought the minions because believe it or not the are an extra clickable foe.

Ariena Najea · Jun 03, 2010, 03:53 PM // 15:53

I used to agree completely with the above, that MM builds are completely useless (like Flare spammers) in RA, however, a couple recent matches have shown me otherwise. MMs are not effective by themselves due to their inability to spike effectively or disrupt in any manner, which are key for taking out WoH Monks. With the right template however, you can pressure somewhat effectively and assist a competent frontline. Note, without a competent frontline, you won't be killing anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by orehovka

So the thing is that I became tired of hexing and bloodstealing and yesterday decided to enter as MM just to see how long will I survive.

This is a problem. Surviving doesn't mean anything if you can't contribute offensively (or defensively, but not as useful since Monks > hybrid healers) so you are starting off with the wrong mindset. You win by killing the other team, staying alive only prolongs matches and may result in a statemate that wastes everyone's time (see dual-Monk teams). Your bar needs more offense.

Quote:

This was my N/Me build:
1. Arcane Echo.
2. Aura of the Lich.
3. Animate Shambling Horror
4. Death Nova.
5. Infuse Condition
6. Dark Bond.
7. Physical Resistance.
8. Resurrection Signet.

The number one problem here is that your ONLY source of damage is minions, who deal somewhat pitiful damage unless you have a swarm of them. This means either you need to keep a bunch up reliably, augment your minion damage, or provide damage from another source. I'll discuss each of these separately.

The first is the most difficult, since outside AotL an exploitable corpse is required, which means you need to be killing foes before you have very much killing power. The easiest way to remedy this is to stall as long as possible at the gate (make sure your team understands the situation and stays put) so that you can start with as many as possible with AotL. Alternatively, you need to keep your existing minions alive, and be able to produce them effectively as soon as a corpse is available. The former is done with Blood of the Master / Feast For the Dead, and the latter is done with quickly-recharging animate skills.

Next, augmenting minion damage is typically done with Barbs. Weaken Armor is also a good option since most players have 70+ armor in their casting sets. Apart from there, there isn't too much else you can do. Both of these have the benefit of pressuring the Monk, since Barbs needs to be removed if you have lots of minions up, and Weaken Armor can also be used to cover your frontline's Deep Wound.

Next, damage from another source isn't too hard. Deathly Swarm is good since most people don't know to deball, and it has a quick cooldown. Fetid Ground is a decent followup since it hits only half a second past the first hit of swarm, or you can be smart and use Fetid on the second target after quarterstepping to have it land about the same time. Detonating is better for this purpose though, read below.

Lastly, something that most MMs miss, and is probably the number one skill-based reason they are bad. Death Nova is decent pressure, but being able to detonate minions makes it extremely dangerous. Feast For the Dead is a good option here, as well as Taste of Death for a heal. If you can detonate effectively, you easily manage your energy (Soul Reaping) and can pressure more effectively.

Here is my bar suggestion:

Aura of the Lich - Required for getting Minions up initially to be of any use
Arcane Echo - Obvious
Animate Bone Horror or Animate Bone Minions - Quicker recharging that Shambling, and you should be killing targets more quickly than every 25s
Death Nova - Pressuring
Feast For the Dead - Keeping minions up AND detonating for spikes
Optional 1
Optional 2
Resurrection Signet - Obvious

For the optionals, bring one of the following combinations:

Barbs + Weaken Armor or Defile Defenses for maximum damage, use with Bone Minions (spec 12+3+1 DM, 9+1 SR, 9+1 Cu)
Deathly Swarm + Withering Aura for spike assisting and weakening physicals, use with Bone Horrors
Diversion + Power Spike or Blackout, use with Bone Horrors (spec 12+3+1 DM, 10 Dom, 8+1 SR)

This relies on having a decent frontliner as mentioned first, but also a good Monk. Infuse Condition is not needed, since the only thing that hurts you is Daze (you'll be casting too much for cripple to matter), Dark Bond is too easily removed and kills your contribution to the team by killing minions randomly, and Physical Resistance isn't that great. Once you have 6 or so minions up, you should be able to use them effectively to block melee attackers. Any good Monk should be able to keep up with other sources of damage without any trouble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Physical Resistance is perhaps the worst PvP skill in the game ... like, against any competent physical, they will switch to elemental mod and laugh at your self-inflicted -armour.

The -armor will not take you under 60, which makes it useful in certain situations. For RA though, it's not worth the slot regardless.